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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 25, 2010 5:32:51 GMT
It is impossible to compare videos unless both uses the same setup and in game settings as well as controller not to mention if he uses G25 wheel, then even the settings in Logitech Profiler needs to be the same. Too many variables for this to be useful. And the biggest part might be the human factor. Thats the main reason I think were not going to come to concensus here. Were not machines with reaction time 0,0000001 seconds, not one lap is equal to the next, or person to person. If I just saw Grnkjr0's and Cipriani's videos from willow springs, compared to zx12rcr's, I wouldnt have came up with raising the issue even, because the differences are to small, in my mind at least, relative to the possible differences in setup and human factor. What makes me wonder is comments like, "I have this grip bug sometimes. Cause I've never experienced it, and we have the same game. Also the experiences in some races online where different people have strange acceleration in just unnatural ways, compared to how my game acts. Possibly this bug, linked to hardware, is random. I'm just more confused now what to believe.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 25, 2010 7:34:07 GMT
holds speed better than me - despite he downshifts into 4th from 6th. He's in 5th gear doing down the hill and into the last 2 turns, then downshifts into 4th. It's probably the same gearing I use, where the car is just below redline in turn 8, which seems to hold the speed a bit better. What makes me wonder is comments like, "I have this grip bug sometimes". Cause I've never experienced it, and we have the same game. Neither have I, but Cipriani did, posting a 5:55 at Nordschleife on the EA leaderboards in career mode. It's also possible that I experienced a grip bug with a lower rated car, or at a track where I don't pay attention to lap times, and simply didn't realize that I was running aboout 1 second faster than my normal time. There are times when I seem to be able to pull away from players that are normally as fast as me, but I haven't paid attention if it was a specific track, car, a lag issue, or perhaps they had a mishap that messed up the tire temperatures. I wasn't aware that tire temperatures were modeled in NFS Shift until the article in AutoSimSport, volume 5 issue 3.
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Post by VGSpeedPro on Jan 25, 2010 13:46:50 GMT
Hi! I didnt do an extensive reading because I dont have time... But will like to leave some words. First of all the hardware... I have used during competitions completly different PC's to my own and my conclusion is the following: if 2 PCs have similar Game performance, doesnt matter what hardware is inside, if Nvidia or ATI, if Intel or AMD, you can do same times. You need some times a little adaptation, but you will end having similar times on both. Things that really affect the outcome? Besides the human factor (some people have more talent then others, and can get results a lot faster, although some less naturally talented players can reach number 1 thru hard work - practice time is a differential factor of course), controllers cant be compared. Its very rare to find a game where all controllers have equal changes. Also, the settings you have on Controller Drivers and Game Car Setups will make a big difference and are related to each other. If you are using a Bonus Car, because you cant adapt the car to your Controller Settings, your Controller Settings will make all the difference, and that may mean a couple of seconds a lap. The tricks... All games have tricks. These tricks are a natural consequence of being a game, and not reality. Dont missunderstand me: by tricks I am not saying cheats. I mean things like starting in 2nd gear readlining the car... Use certain extreme setup settings that are allowed by the game but dont make sense, which can only be found by your ass when driving, in other words, extensive testing. An example of that in Shift are the Brake Ducts and Cooler Openings: because is a game and doesnt have damage you can put them to a minimum, an optimal setting on many tracks, but that on real cars would mean they would burn! What times are real? If you want to compare you to other gamers and this way found the limits of the game, you have to do in an environment with controled settings, like WR Project allows. I am not saying that times done outside are not real, but looking of them and consider them as reference is a lost of time because you dont know in what conditions they were achieved; if cheats were used; what controller was used; etc.. Cya! Rogério
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Jan 25, 2010 15:47:02 GMT
Perhaps we should make it mandatory to use wrecords cheat proof software in our PBRC´s to eliminate any doubt people might have about our times we do in ISRC II?
Poul
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Post by Jussi on Jan 25, 2010 18:05:46 GMT
What is that WR software and does it have any effect on the FPS? I do not understand most of the stuff written here, but I do know that lower FPS means lower times for me. It probably would not make a difference between 150 and 100 FPS, but if you go from above 30 to under 30 FPS, you're basically screwed. Jussi
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 25, 2010 20:24:59 GMT
Rogerio, thanks for the input.
Grnkjr0, I think it's a great idea. No offense to the visual modders out there, but I dont think theres any place for that if your gonna compete you should use the same game as everyone else. The problem is, IF there hasnt been a way to beat the cheet proofness of that client yet, making it mandatory here and expanding the number of users surely will speed up the process of getting it cracked. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I will still believe there is no such thing as cheat proof for a game or anything like this on the web today.
Jsskppnn, Your probably right, the question is whether it is due to the difference in hardware actually changing the psysical rules of the game, or the human factor not being able to react to a jittery game.
The main thought is off course, if there is some differences, even if they are small, in these type of competitions, those small differences become quite big. And then we can all stop racing and post our pc-specs and see who has the baddest pc.
I havent tested this game on different consoles and different pc's, wish I had the opportunity to do that.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 25, 2010 22:17:28 GMT
Even with a perfect cheat detection system, there's video evidence that the gameplay is not the same on all players systems, which I thought was the main point of this thread. there is no such thing as cheat proof for a game. The saveable replay system used in NFS2 -> NFS5 was cheat proof, because the replay stored the users controller inputs and all peformance related data (car, upgrades, tuning, assists, cheat codes, ...). These replays could be exchanged between players, the performance data in the replays could be displayed with a replay checker, and the replay could be viewed on another player's system. If there were any differences between the creator and viewer system or game, then those stored controller inputs wouldn't result in the same response from the car, and the car would go off track and get stuck. The replay system in those game only worked for offline events though. As mentioned, the main reason the client program used for wrecord hasn't been cracked is due to the limited audience. If a similar client program came with every copy of NFS Shift, it would probably have been cracked by now, similar to the cracked versions of PunkBuster used in first person shooters.
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 25, 2010 23:33:24 GMT
I'm sorry but I dont see that as evidence to base a "true" base for the discussion on, because we dont know for _sure_ if they have used a cheat, tampered with it in any other way and all other possibilites for it. Is isnt proven to behave different on different systems, except for jittery playback because of unsufficiant graphic memory etc, but that isnt the same thing as the game actually changing as we talked about. Again, not to point anyone out here, I dont even have anyone specific in mind. But generally, you cant believe everything people say, the world isnt fair and so on =) As I said in our discussion on EA forum, I wouldnt fully even trust my best friend with not using a cheat and then having a laugh about beating me. Why? It's just a game. Even with a perfect cheat detection system, there's video evidence that the gameplay is not the same on all players systems, which I thought was the main point of this thread.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 26, 2010 1:11:50 GMT
There are cheats for grip and speed, but I don't know how you would make a cheat to eliminate the bouncing, and end up with a video that is so smooth like ProxKruiz. I recall similar comments about how smooth Anak's (ardathrokok at youtube) video in the works Z06 was, although traction control set to high may have been part of the reason. I'm pretty sure that Anak's videos were made before anyone had figured out how to make mods for NFS Shift.
From what I read at the USSR forum, the wrecord.com clients works with cracked versions of NFS games, which seems like a potential weakness.
Has no one other than Cirpriani and zx12rcr ever exprienced a grip bug or an unusually fast lap, or gaining an unusually large lead over otherwise nearly equal players online (ignoring the glitched car issue before patch 1.02 was released)? There have been times when I've gained unusually large leads, but I don't pay enough attention to lap times to know if I was running faster than normal or if the other players were running slower than normal.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Jan 26, 2010 1:39:14 GMT
Grip and or speed bug Glendale West using GT-R SpecV doing 45.730 which is impossible with a 14.00 rated car. Just look at wrecord where the best time is 1 sec faster using Murch. But we all know that car had some weird bugs happen to it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1aKfJu2ducThe only reason to install wrecord client for our ISRC II PBRC´s, would be when we race unrestricted - otherwise people can just use other parts without us knowing about it.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Jan 26, 2010 2:40:41 GMT
Tomas I just saw you installed the wrecord client - did it hurt your fps or did the actual game play feel any different?
Poul
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 26, 2010 3:36:04 GMT
No I dont think it takes much memory, just a small app. I dont usually have lag probs though. -Edit: Yea and you can't use nitro or do time attack, just quick race or drift.
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Post by TheGreenMonster (PC) on Jan 26, 2010 4:51:46 GMT
Sure wished I'd get a grip bug once in while....
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Post by Jussi on Jan 26, 2010 5:47:21 GMT
Yea and you can't use nitro or do time attack, just quick race or drift. Can't use nitro? You mean you can't use N 2O even if the car has it installed? Now what's the point in that? Jussi
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 26, 2010 6:27:48 GMT
Grip and or speed bug Glendale West using GT-R SpecV doing 45.730 which is impossible with a 14.00 rated car. I assume that was before patch 1.02 where the SpecV was getting glitched all the time? Although you mention this only happens online, note that Cipriani's 5:55 at Nordschliefe in the Maserati MC12 was done in career mode, not during online play, although he was logged in since the stats ended up on the leaderboard. What I'm wondering if anyone here has noticed any usually fast laps and/or gaining more on other players than normal since patch 1.02?
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