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Post by rcgldr on Jan 20, 2010 11:04:04 GMT
But his start was so drastically much faster than mine I only saw Cirpriani online one time. I don't recall fast launches, since we never gridded close to each other. I only noticed that when I started at the front of the pack, while he was at the back of the pack, he gained almost 1 second on every turn of the short tracks (like London River, Ebisu, ...) that the host was running. I couldn't get a good sense of what would happen on a track like Willow Springs where there's less than 2 seconds difference between our best lap times (my best laps are mid to high 1:07's, his are mid 1:06's). I would like to see Cirpriani make some videos of the shorter tracks, like a 1:12 run at Ambush Canyon (his record is 1:11.xx), just to see what he's doing different than us human players. Ignoring the auto-clutch off launch aspect, ever notice that sometimes it seems that your car brakes or corners a bit better than the cars of the slightly slower players? Getting back to my main point, the most obvious difference is the lack of bouncing as seen in some videos. You really can't see a diference in grip when it only means about a 3% difference in lap times. You can see a huge difference in how smooth some of the cars in various youtube videos are. Again, look at the last video I posted a link to. www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKzEv1MFpFo&fmt=18
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Post by aarog5606 on Jan 20, 2010 12:17:04 GMT
But his start was so drastically much faster than mine I only saw Cirpriani online one time. I don't recall fast launches, since we never gridded close to each other. I only noticed that when I started at the front of the pack, while he was at the back of the pack, he gained almost 1 second on every turn of the short tracks (like London River, Ebisu, ...) that the host was running. I couldn't get a good sense of what would happen on a track like Willow Springs where there's less than 2 seconds difference between our best lap times (my best laps are mid to high 1:07's, his are mid 1:06's). I would like to see Cirpriani make some videos of the shorter tracks, like a 1:12 run at Ambush Canyon (his record is 1:11.xx), just to see what he's doing different than us human players. Jeff, i think there are 2 reasons Norman is so fast. 1. skill of course and 2. setups. Norman has done a great job of figuring out setups, i have been using his for a while now, they alot better than mine. Except for LP640, lol, i like mine a little better. Full downforce helps alot too, i know you use very little if any downforce, unless you have changed recently. I dont see where using no downforce helps on any track, except Road America. By the time you get to the straights im so far ahead(unless i crash) it doesnt matter what your top speed is. - I am using "your" and "I" as an example here. Now im talking about online, doing quick races for our PBRC would be different, i think. Tomas, you use game pad? Now im impressed!
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 20, 2010 13:00:11 GMT
But his start was so drastically much faster than mine I only saw Cirpriani online one time. I don't recall fast launches, since we never gridded close to each other. I only noticed that when I started at the front of the pack, while he was at the back of the pack, he gained almost 1 second on every turn of the short tracks (like London River, Ebisu, ...) that the host was running. I couldn't get a good sense of what would happen on a track like Willow Springs where there's less than 2 seconds difference between our best lap times (my best laps are mid to high 1:07's, his are mid 1:06's). Yes the same for me when I raced him at road america, but again, it has been most noticable with lower rating cars, especially rating 10. When I raced you with stingrays, I noticed no difference that woke my attention. I won one at road america and you won at a silverstone, it seemed like we drove exactly similar cars, acceleration wise and so on. At start and while driving around. Ignoring the auto-clutch off launch aspect, ever notice that sometimes it seems that your car brakes or corners a bit better than the cars of the slightly slower players? Actually, I often see people do very bad cornering, more of the angle which they hit different corners. How they brake is hard for me to say, as long as they dont brake to late, which also is related to how they enter the corner. The average online player isnt that good to be honest, although there are quite a few pretty good drivers out there too. For those that I know a little bit better, that arn't aquainted to this site at all, I know if they drive with assists or not, I've never seen a difference like that before. It's my experience, from what I can tell, that those with these super powers, or grip, are not a very big group of people. Again, not saying that anyone here or out there online, that smokes me on the start, are cheaters. But it's fair to wonder how it is that this group of people are able to do this right.. I mean, I want to be able to do the same, and I wish that these differences are not in fact related to hardware, actually some setting. Because if it is, it cant just be me, it kinda sux. Yes that looks like a completely different game than mine for sure. I see the same type of flowing riding on air type of movement also in zx12rcr's videos. Not to sound arrogant here, and not to mention anyone specific, some of these videos arn't that impressing driving wise. They are not totally bad in any way, except when theyre acutally going off track. I dont know all tracks, but I know how my game works for the few tracks that I've really practiced _alot_. I would summarize like this for me. The braking, and how much braking is important, but what really makes the difference for me, is the line of how I enter and exit corners and I've really tried as many ways I can. And especially nordschleife for me, I see lines followed which for me would need much more braking than I use, thus losing more exit speed than I do, and still their not. This is and will be human factors, were not machines doing perfect timed braking and turning at perfect amounts lap after lap, were not measurable like in percentages in a strict matter. But it sure seems funky.
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 20, 2010 13:18:07 GMT
Thanks Aarog. But some of the best times have been done with pads. I personally cant see how they manage some of those times with a pad though, might be due to what we are discussing. As I figure, the steering control must be much better with a wheel, It's very easy with a small analog stick, like on the x-box controller, to steer too much and get it on the side and lose speed. I crank the steering sensitivity down way low in controller setting and probably tap that stick like 500 small fast times during a lap. But there have been some info out I think that something is built into the game to compensate for pad users.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 20, 2010 19:51:06 GMT
I see the same type of flowing riding on air type of movement also in zx12rcr's videos. zx12rcr is using the no head shake and no blur mods, the same as me. The no-headshake mod is more noticable from within the in car view. Link to these mods if you want to check to see if they make any difference in the gameplay other than visual. rcgldr.net/nfss/nfssmods.zipLooking at zx12rcr's videos, he's getting the same amount of bouncing as me, but apparently more grip. Anak and ProxKruiz are getting much less bouncing than me, in addition to apparently more grip. No, but the times are impressive, which is my point. Anak's 6:05.690 run in an untuned works Z06 is probably unbeatable. zx12rcr's 1:05.774 time at Willow, www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbywBxTFoQU&fmt=22 beats the wrecord times by almost 1 second, although zx12rcr explained that this was due to some type of grip bug, which could also explain some of the wrecord times. zx12rcr's time was done in time attack mode, which may be different than race mode though. But there have been some info out I think that something is built into the game to compensate for pad users. In AutoSimSport, volume 5, issue 3, in a interview with the developers, adding support for gamepads was one of the things they mentioned. I don't know if this means they implemented some type of assist for gamepads or not. One thing that Anak mentioned at NFS Unlimited is that he has steering assist set to low and traction control set to high, even though he uses a G25 steering wheel. This results in faster lap times for him and some other players. Apparently WolfKing, who ran a 5:52.577 at Nordschleife, uses a gamepad, with the same driving settings, steering assist low, traction control high, all other assists off. As mentioned before, I'd like to see some videos from Cipriani, especially on the shorter tracks, like Ambush Canyon, Alpental, Tokyo Circuit.
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 24, 2010 0:50:50 GMT
Ok it's just my opinion, sure do whatever you guys want. But for me theres a red flag as soon as I hear that someone unpacked the game and modded game files, still if they say the mods are only visual. In my world I cant see why anyone would want to do that cause it questions what that person are doing. We should all have the same game while racing, buy the game, install it and drive. No I dont think you cheat rcgldr, neither from your lap times, from racing you online or your videos.
Do you really not see the abscence of bouncing in zx12rcr videos? He had a run at nordschleife up which I think is removed, not sure. It was very obvious better grip at that one, not as extreme as the one you showed but close. It was because of that one he was accused of cheating by another fast german player online that I think you know. Me myself do still believe there might be some differences due to hardware though.
But really guys, anyone can unpack the game files, which is needed to install mods and create your own, right? Just blaiming everything on lag and hardware I think is naive here. Not for this forum, but I think there might be many more out there than we think that does this.
Kind of lost my point and drifting into the land where people start taking offense now I sence so I'll stop since we probably wont solve this matter here anyway. Not my intention to point out anyone as a cheater, just used some names as examples where I've felt something was up, then if it's my imagination or hardware related differences I leave up to each person do decide.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 24, 2010 2:02:01 GMT
Ok it's just my opinion, sure do whatever you guys want. But for me theres a red flag as soon as I hear that someone unpacked the game and modded game files. The no head shake and no motion blur mods do not require running an unpacked version of the game. I repacked them so a player is just replacing two of the pakfiles. I re-did the changes myself to make sure no other changes were made. You can try this for yourself to see if there's any effect: rcgldr.net/nfss/nfssmods.zipA lot of players don't like the motion blur or the head shaking, which is why these mods were one of the first ones to be made. The motion blur is just annoying when making videos, but the excessive head shaking does bother some players (zx12rcr said it made him nauseated). The absense of bouncing is due to the no-head shake mode and in car view. The bouncing looks the same as it does on my system. Two runs and they're still there. One was done with fraps during the run, the other with fraps during the replay. zx12rcr stated that with fraps running live, his lap times were 2 or 3 seconds slower. www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVIiZ3PTR-A&fmt=22www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMh8xx1l3Ak&fmt=22I asked zx12rcr to make those videos so I could look for differences. The bouncing seems the same as my system, unlike ProxKruiz video where there's virtually no bouncing at all. I compared zx12rcr's video to VGSpeedPro's video and each player seems to take some corners a bit faster than the other, but the overall time is almost identical. I wish Cipriani would make some videos. Some of his wrecord.com times are incredible, like a sub 1:12 lap time at Ambush Canyon. Last time I checked, Cipriani hadn't posted a time for Nordschleife or for Willow Springs. I only saw Cipriani online one time, and as mentioned, in a series of short track races, he was gaining about 1 second or so on me in every turn. I think this was a 14.0 event.
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 24, 2010 2:32:39 GMT
The no head shake and no motion blur mods do not require running an unpacked version of the game. I repacked them so a player is just replacing two of the pakfiles. I re-did the changes myself to make sure no other changes were made. You can try this for yourself to see if there's any effect I do believe you that it is just visual, but for me I'll choose not to add anything to my game, no point for me. Two runs and they're still there. One was done with fraps during the run, the other with fraps during the replay. zx12rcr stated that with fraps running live, his lap times were 2 or 3 seconds slower.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVIiZ3PTR-A&fmt=22
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMh8xx1l3Ak&fmt=22 Perhaps one of them is the same, but I believe there has been another one there. I just followed a link you posted to one of his nordschleife runs in another thread somewhere here which lead to "been removed". I wish Cipriani would make some videos. Some of his wrecord.com times are incredible, like a sub 1:12 lap time at Ambush Canyon. Last time I checked, Cipriani hadn't posted a time for Nordschleife or for Willow Springs. I only saw Cipriani online one time, and as mentioned, in a series of short track races, he was gaining about 1 second or so on me in every turn. I think this was a 14.0 event. I guess he could tell you this himself, but I believe he's german, which means the same time zone as me, which explains why I've seen him online more. But no one from ISRC really seem to drive much online at all, except greenmonster who I had a couple nice races with the other night. Ciprianis youtube channel: www.youtube.com/user/Cipriani189Again, not to point out cipriani for anything except an example of a very fast start while doing rating 10 race, at the same time as I had a faster start than everyone else. While racing unrestricted cars I've never noticed any differences, perhaps because of human perception. Perhaps it's all because of setup and lag, as aaron suggested. Though I dont believe thats the whole thing. Especially when I'm comparing it to zx12rcr specifically in rating 10 races. He just blows past me, in the start, in acceleration and top speed, even when I use nitro.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 24, 2010 5:41:21 GMT
He had a run at nordschleife up which I think is removed. Perhaps one of them is the same, but I believe there has been another one there. I just checked, the first two links to zx12rcr's Nordschliefe videos in this thread: isrc2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nfssvideos&action=display&thread=141show "video has been removed". However the times for the newer videos are identical, 5:56.760 and 5:59.495, so apparently he deleted and re-uploaded the videos. Perhaps he was hoping for the newer larger default viewer mentioned in the youtube forums. Cirpriani already made this one. Although the title shows LP560, it's a LP640 and Cipriani runs a 1:12.30 2nd lap, which is one of the videos I was hoping to see. www.youtube.com/watch?v=W21TIdLeiMc&fmt=22Although it appears he launches in 3rd gear in this video, that's just a game bug. However he is able to launch at redline, the same as Aaron. If I try this on my system, the launches are slower than if I launch at 7,000 rpm. His car also appears to be less bouncy than on my system. Part of this is cockpit view, but his car doesn't seem to get disturbed as much on the 3 bumps, but that could be some sort of driving method. Try running Ambush Canyon yourself for a comparason to Cipriani's video. I don't recall that the few times I've seen him online. What I see is fairly even starts, then zx12rcr slowly gaining a bit on every turn, but not by as much as I saw with Cipriani the one time I raced with him. Aaron has the fastest launches of any online player I've seen. The one time I saw Cirpriani, we never gridded close to each other so I don't know about his launches. Also to clarify, when I mentioned that Cirpriani was gaining about 1 second per corner, I meant the displayed time differential on the HUD, which exaggerates the time differences. I don' t know what the real time difference was other than if I gridded up front and Cipriani was behind, I could see him gaining on me visually fairly quickly. Why the focus on zx12rcr, looking at his online times, there are only a few tracks he's fast at. Cipriani is faster at most tracks, ProxKruiz clearly has much less bouncing than anyone, and the youtube videos from Anak (ardathrokok) and MrKinkRawana show the fastest lap times of any player.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Jan 24, 2010 5:52:50 GMT
Jeff the car Norman uses is a LP-560 and not a LP-640. But he lap times so fast I can understand why you think that.
Edited: Sry I got confused by the colours - it is a LP-640
Poul
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 24, 2010 5:53:57 GMT
There is no focus in him, the focus on my part is on getting to some understanding of if this is something that exists, the hardware-stuff. I use him as an example because I've noticed it most clearly with him, not once or twice, but several times. As I said, at first I didnt believe one word of your theories, now I suspect that there might be something there, and he is the main reason why I think so. I'm off work now, so gotta go. Why the focus on zx12rcr? Cipriani is faster at most tracks, ProxKruiz clearly has much less bouncing than anyone, and the youtube videos from Anak (ardathrokok) and MrKinkRawana show the fastest lap times of any player.
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Post by TheGreenMonster (PC) on Jan 24, 2010 17:11:43 GMT
Hmmmm how should I say this....... How can I get one of those video clips? I have 4 or 5 different web developers software ,packages like flash, dream weaver, Adobe . I'd like to try to import an AVi file or what ever format the fil is and see if I can change the video clip,,, maybe take out 400 or 500 hundred frame. change the time.....
I tried downloading it off youtube but the files are locked and I'm not able to edit it. Maybe these guys are editing there video's and then posting them?
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Post by TomasT (PC) on Jan 24, 2010 20:23:01 GMT
Some are editing their videos, doing layering effects with different views and presentation texts, adding music and so on. But to fake your time with removing frames would mean that you would have to mask out and clone and do a lot of work with the background behind the timer, because during the whole race trees, sky and much happens behind the timer. I work as a digital artist along side with my photography business, and I can tell you that it's a lot of work to mask out a timer like that and make it look real, frame for frame.
Most of the times mentioned here are not super human or faster than world records, it's other things that makes people react.
But I guess we'll never find out, just have these hints, mostly because we dont get any real info from EA dev's that know how the game works which we only can speculate about.
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Post by rcgldr on Jan 24, 2010 21:23:59 GMT
I'm wondering if nVidia card owners are updating PhysX, and if that could affect game play. Also, looking at ProXKruiz's video again, he has the graphics turned down, as background objects aren't being rendered until they are fairly close, so perhaps bouncing effects are reduced at lower graphics settings. Some here have mentioned that running fraps during a live run affects game play (this doesn't happen in most other racing games, even with fraps running, lap times remain the same, even if the video is degraded). Perhaps if graphic settings are lowered, the gameplay improves enough to affect lap times. As far as speeding up videos, it's possible, if there is no display of time or speed (otherwise you'd have to photoshop every frame in a video to fix time and speed display). I made a "28.81" second lap at Willow Springs in ProStreet, but removed the elapsed time display by capturing at 1280x960, then cropping off the top and bottom to 1280x720. The speedometer was kph, but I sped up the video by 1.6 times (while retaining audio pitch), so the movement would correspond to a speedometer showing mph. Finally I photoshopped the final stats: rcgldr.net/nfsp/npwszndf.wmvMost of the videos are made from in car or show the HUD, so you can at least see the speedometers of the cars, so it's very unlikely that these videos are being sped up. Ignoring the videos, there's also the issue of some incredible times at wrecord.com, and zx12rcr's video of Willow Springs which he mentioned is over 1 second faster than his normal time due to some type of grip bug. It's possible that all of his videos involve some type of grip bug to some degree. Cipriani reported a grip bug that allowed him to run 5:55 at Nordschleife in the Maserati MC12 that showed up in the EA leaderboards in career mode, noting that cornering speeds were about 10kph or so faster than normal. None of the patches mentions any fixing of a grip bug. As another example, VRTKiller ran a 1:58.479 at Spa GP, faster than the wrecord time, a fast 1:31.541 at Autopolis, but I don't see any other top 30 times for him at other tracks, and the few times I saw him online he was fast, but not world record pace, so perhaps these runs were the result of a grip bug? What the videos do show is a diffference in the amount of bouncing, and for the ones that include speedometers, faster cornering speeds (more grip) for some players at some or most, but not all corners (don't understand this). Here are two videos at Willow Springs to compare: Grnkjr0 - 1:06.398 (2nd lap): www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPOIDzfilE&fmt=22zx12rcr - 1:05.774 (time attack). www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbywBxTFoQU&fmt=22zx12rcr mentioned that these very fast times only occur once every 30 to 40 laps, some type of grip bug. He's also using in car view, which someone here mentioned might be a bit faster than hood view. Based on my own experience, turn 2 is being taken at fulll throttle, so the only diffference in control inputs is the steering (and the setups), making it a good turn to use for comparason. At 1:37 into Grnkjr0's video and 0:14 into zx12rcr's video, Grnkjr0 is going 237kph, zx12rcr 240kph. For Grnkjr0 the speed drops and holds to about 203kph, then slows to 198kph at the crest for Grknjr0, for zx12rcr, the speed also drops to 203kph, but then increases for a brief bit to 209kph, before also slowing down to 198kph at the crest. I don't know how much of this is setup. Assuming zx12rcr is using my setup (he downloaded my save), Grnkjr0 is using lower tire pressure 20/21.6 versus 23/24, and 1/0 downforce instead of 0/1 downforce.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Jan 25, 2010 4:59:49 GMT
It is impossible to compare videos unless both uses the same setup and in game settings as well as controller not to mention if he uses G25 wheel, then even the settings in Logitech Profiler needs to be the same. Too many variables for this to be useful. Willow Springs GP in 1.06.115 www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE71JWH6LV4I can tell that he is very fast in 1st sector doing that in 33.593 - my 1st sector in that 1.06.115 video is 33.692 - then again he is much faster going down that small hill and again holds speed better than me - despite he downshifts into 4th from 6th in the last corner before the finish line. All this could be related to a grip bug as he explains or be tuning explained - no way of knowing. You could compare his sectors times with the ones in wrecord and see if anyone ever managed to do something similar. Hard not to think that with people using different tuning and controller, that someone had not shown similar sector times. Poul
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