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Post by mercedesclkgtr on Nov 2, 2009 7:56:38 GMT
i've also had races with EvanLongoria on London river ( also with rcgldr)
He has to be using some kind of bug, something like the top speed bug. i've got video evidence here when i am at 100% throttle along the straights, and he is gaining a 1 second lead. every 2-3 seconds. and this is while i'm at full throttle.
so something is fishy is deffinatly going on. i havent had a chance to race with RedArrow yet.. but i shall keep my eye out for any suspect activity.
i can upload the video to youtube or something similar.. i've got the full video on a facebook page but i am not sure if it is able to be viewed by the public... i'll post it in here incase it can.
edit: it can't.. i'll get a video up on youtube for you
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Post by rcgldr on Nov 2, 2009 11:02:18 GMT
More experiments.
Set grip to 4.0 (versus 1.3), cg to 0.3 (versus 0.6). At Nordschleife I ran a 5:45, versus my best normal mode laps at 6:15, about 8.7% faster. At Willow Springs, I ran 1:01.124, while my best normal mode lap is 1:08.222, 11.6% faster.
My guess is since there's a sudden increase in the number of cheat times on the leaderboards, most of these are due to some trainer that was recently released. The ability to mod the game was figured out a month ago. I'm guessing the trainer increases power more than grip, based on the few players I've seen cheating online, or perhaps these guys just aren't that good at driving.
So far, most of the cheaters host races, rather than join other races, so they're easy to avoid.
Ignoring the cheater issue, I still suspect that the game simply plays a bit different depending on a players system. Plus there are issues like the speed bug that Cipriani mentioned.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Nov 2, 2009 14:35:44 GMT
Thank you for taking your time to test all this Jeff. Then things are as I suspected - people are using cheats online now. It is with NFS like it has always been - nothing to prevent people from cheating.
Poul
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Post by VGSpeedPro on Nov 2, 2009 14:52:40 GMT
And its so easy to prevent it...
Rogério
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Post by mercedesclkgtr on Nov 2, 2009 21:24:09 GMT
is there a way that EA could impliment something like punkbuster ( or something similar) to prevent this cheating?
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Post by rcgldr on Nov 3, 2009 4:48:18 GMT
is there a way that EA could impliment something like punkbuster ( or something similar) to prevent this cheating? It ends up as a never ending battle. Someone makes trainer for NFS Shift, EA makes a trainer detector, someone makes a trainer to defeat the trainer detector, ... Ultimately, someone could just make hacked versions of any cheat detection programs or code fragments, using these to report back good status even though a game was modified or a trainer was used. If people can make "cracked" version of very large games, they can do the same for the relatively small cheat detection programs. EA tried implementing a cheat detection system on the server end with Underground 2, but it really didn't detect cheats, and it falsely accused players doing wheelie launches with the 240SX in drag mode, and it randomly accused all players in drift events when collision was enabled. For offline lap records, the replay system used in NFS2 -> NFS5 were cheat proof. The replays store the controller inputs instead of telemetry. The replays also store all peformance related data, the car, the setup, the parts, any assists or cheat codes used, ..., and there are replay checkers that display all of the peformance related data in a replay. When the replay is viewed, the game is actually running a new race, but using the control inputs from the replay instead of live ones from the player viewing the video. If there was anything wrong, even just a difference in how the game played on a different PC, then the control inputs wouldn't work correctly, and the car would end up going off track, and getting stuck. Toca Race Driver 2 and 3 also used a controller input based replay system, but the replays didn't always work, and I don't recall anyone making a replay checker for RD2 or RD3. Since Underground 1 was known to favor some PC's versus others, and since the removal of the fool proof replay system used in NFS2 -> NFS5, I've never trusted the lap times in any NFS game made after NFS5, so I don't worry about them.
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Post by VGSpeedPro on Nov 3, 2009 8:55:05 GMT
Hi!
In SimRacing we use programs running at the same time as the game which will check all key files in use from the instalation directory as well as the values in memory. I dont remember any cheating occuring since a system like this was first built... This kind of software would make, for a game like the lastest F1 from EA, something like 24 pages of checkums. Is it 100% secure? Probably not, but breaking it would probably require more time than the actual time it would take to be competitive! ;P The fact this games are txt based, enables easy cheating but also easy checking. I am pretty sure that in same time the World Record Tools will be a very efficient way of seeing who is cheating and who is not.
About Times vs Systems, well, I have said this many times: the only one I consider to be relevant is if someone has a slow system and you compare it to a fast one. Since NFSU1 I had AMD, Intel, ATI, Nvidia and I managed to always be around the best times... I am not saying that there isnt any difference, but if there is, its marginal. Ultimately, the Driver and the Controller used make all the difference.
Cya!
Rogério
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Post by rcgldr on Nov 3, 2009 9:34:39 GMT
In SimRacing we use programs running at the same time as the game which will check all key files in use from the installation directory as well as the values in memory. The method used to break this is to modify that checking program so it always reports good status even if the files or memory doesn't match. In the case of wrecord.com, the number of people involved is too small for someone to bother doing this. Usually programs like punkbuster aren't modified to allow cheating, but instead are modified to allow cracked games to be run (usually requires servers that allow the craked games to be played). Apparently it's an issue for shooter type games, both for cracked version and for cheating versions. All it takes is modifying the code or making a clone that always reports good status. I doubt players are bothering usign an unpacker, editting files and then using a repacker. I suspect virtually all of the recent activity with cheating is due to the trainer that someone mentioned here. In the case of NFSU1, the faster lap times occured on slower systems, and it was significant. There were 3 main issues. On a fast system, landing from a jump would slow down a car, but on a slow system, the car would retain it's speed. When bouncing or sliding off a wall, the speed loss was less on a slower system than it was on a faster system. Just turning also slowed down a car, and there was a difference between systems, but it mostly showed up at high speeds, and the difference was small compared to the drops or wall hits which made a 10 mph == 16 kph difference in some cases. One of the better players, Skroting, posted about his lap times getting slower when he upgraded to a new computer. At Olympic Square, his lap times went from 37.xx seconds to 38.xx seconds, about 1 second slower. Stadium was affected by about 1.3 seconds, mostly the drops and the wall hits.
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Post by VGSpeedPro on Nov 3, 2009 12:04:09 GMT
Hi Jeff!
There is no point in discussing this with you, I knew this already and against my best judgement I wrote about it again, but I feel there is something I need to say, still: the tools that I used for SimRacing generated checkums for everything including the software itself. These checksums were encrypted in a file and sent to the League. Only the League Administration had the second part of the tool, the one used to uncrypt the file. I only know how the generated report looked like because once it was shown to us, after some teams requested it.
Cya!
Rogério
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Post by rcgldr on Nov 3, 2009 12:49:10 GMT
These checksums were encrypted in a file and sent to the League. That approach seems like it should work, at least for the files. Videos from ardathrokok and a few other players made soon after the release of NFS Shift, which I'm assuming were done without any hacks, are why I suspect the game doesn't play the same on all PC's. As mentioned by VGSpeedPro, there are a few key corners at Nordschliefe that he can take faster than most players, and the car appears much more stable. ardathrokok videos look similar to the videos made from the PS3, the cars are more stable, and either the grip is a bit better, or whatever is causing the instability and bouncing on the PC version is affecting the grip. Note that PS3 times seem to be the fastest, with two sub 6:05's in a Zonda, and a sub 6:10 in the Z06.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Nov 4, 2009 4:46:16 GMT
Speedbug: This is what happens when I get that speed bug with the GT-R SpeecV where the 5th gear get really taller and I get very low downforce and grip, makes it really hard to be competitive on nordschleife when this happens. I think top speed it about 325 km/h in 6th here and in the picture you see me doing 305 km/h in 5th gear. Normally my car will not go faster than 275 km/h in 6th gear. After this picture was taken I tested it on same track and the bug was gone. Poul
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Post by rcgldr on Nov 4, 2009 5:09:15 GMT
Maybe this should be called the SpecV bug. Unlike the other speed bug that allowed Cirpriani to post a 5:55 at Norsdschleife in the Maserati MC12, the SpecV bug happens quite often and lapt times are usually slower. "SpecV glitch" might be a better term for this.
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Post by Grnkjr0 on Nov 5, 2009 5:24:50 GMT
Perhaps...
I have no idea. This with the SpecV, is the only time I have seen anything out of the ordinary.
Pol pot
Edited:
Poul
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Post by aarog5606 on Nov 5, 2009 13:22:23 GMT
This SpecV bug is really starting to get annoying. At first it was only every once in a while it would happen. Last night, it happened in 5 races in a row for me. I dont like. On a few tracks, its actually a little faster, but for the most part i get slower lap times like Jeff stated. I adjusted the final gear ratio from 6.04(i think) to 5.89 and now i dont get the faster acceleration. It is also the only car i have this bug with.
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Post by rcgldr on Nov 7, 2009 0:49:59 GMT
This SpecV bug is really starting to get annoying. At first it was only every once in a while it would happen. Last night, it happened in 5 races in a row for me. Seems to be related to the host, some host seem to cause the glitch to happen more than others. However, I have run a series of races with the same host, and the SpecV kept switching between glitched and not glitched randomly, so I don't know what triggers the glitch.
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